Two wheel brakes on trailer

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Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

Gary -

It's a shame this happened. Tony tried to spec out the best trailer he could for the price. He went with galvanized construction, leaf springs, a well known manufacturer in Baltimore, etc. He even had them extend the main beams to better support the boat in back and to equip it with a spare tire. But he probably relied on them to recommend things that he wasn't sure about - like the number of brakes it should have to safely stop it. Venture told me that the dealers are the ones who specify the number of brakes and some of them try to low-ball the price by skimping here. According to their web site, disc brakes are now standard on most of their trailers. The site also advises customers to equip tandem axle trailers with brakes on all axles. I copied the following from their web site -
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BRAKES
Do I need brakes on my trailer?
Brakes are advised on all axles. But remember that laws are different with each state. Talk to your local DMV for further information.

Can I get brakes on any trailer?
Venture Trailers have brakes available for all of the models that surpass 3,000 pounds gross vehicle weight. Brakes are also available for lighter models if requested.

What are surge brakes?
The majority of hydraulic trailer brakes operate on the surge principle. The coupler assembly is known as an actuator and it includes a master brake cylinder comparable to that in an automobile. When the brakes are utilized in the tow vehicle, the trailer "surges" against the tow ball, this forces fluid through the trailer hydraulic system.

Will my trailer be equipped with drum or disc brakes?
Venture Trailer models commonly come standard with disc brakes, excluding utility trailers, water vehicle models, and pontoon trailers, which are all supplied with drum brakes where they are suitable.

How do I bleed my brakes?
Bleeding trailer brakes is the same fundamental as bleeding brakes on a tow vehicle. You must first detach the trailer from the tow vehicle and block the trailer, making sure the master cylinder is full of fluid at all times. Open the bleeder screw that is furthest away from the actuator. Apply force to the actuator slide, hold it, and then tighten the bleeder screw. After this, release the actuator slide. You should repeat as necessary until all air is cleared. Continue to the next furthest bleeder screw and repeat until the entire trailer has been bled. Be sure to check the master cylinder fluid level frequently during the operation. Also, if a new actuator is installed, it should be bench bled, or pre-bled, before it is attached to the hydraulic line at the rear.

How do I adjust my drum brakes?
Since the brakes do not self adjust, there is a certain method to be used regularly. First, you must elevate the subject wheel and access the adjuster by removing the rubber plug at the 6 o'clock position on the rear of the backing plate. Next, with the wheel rotating in the forward direction of trailer travel, you must tighten the adjuster until the wheel stops and cannot be rotated by hand. Then release the adjuster tension until wheel spins one full revolution after a rotational spin force is applied by hand. Repeat the procedure for each wheel on the trailer equipped with brakes. It is critical to adjust the brakes on a regular basis.

How do I adjust my disc brakes?
Disc brakes adjust themselves and do not require manual adjustment.
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Why didn't Venture do what THEY themselves recommend? I don't think Tony told them to put ONLY 2 brakes on it, and make sure that they are only drum brakes. Tony will be out of the office for a few weeks. I spoke to Will this morning and they will do something when Tony gets back. Will now understands that we are very concerned about this.

Anyone buying a Telstar in the next few weeks should specify disc brakes on BOTH axles before the sale. It will probably raise the price of the trailer by around $250, but it will be worth it.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Dan

Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Dan »

Ron—

When did the trailers start coming with a spare tire. Mine certainly didn't, and that's something important. The brakes are also important. Finding a spare tire that fits this trailer is very difficult, as IIRC, some of the other early owners had issues finding one.

Dan
drsm
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by drsm »

I was pleasantly surprised to find mine came with a spare. I had emailed Will prior to the pick-up to ask for the size, so I could pick up a spare. He answered that it was already taken care of.
Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

Dan -

359 has the spare. I was also surprised to see it when I pulled into their yard. I'm not sure when they started doing it.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

I'm throwing out the old pair of drum brakes tommorrow, and I figured that some of you might like to see what happens to overloaded drum brakes after 19 months, 4,500 miles, and maybe 10 excursions into salt water. Notice that the rods on the wheel cylinder are rusted in place, and that there is very little lining left on the two now frozen brake shoes. They were thoroughly washed out with fresh water after each dunking. Other than some rust, the drums look OK but there is nothing left of the frozen shoes to stop them, assuming that the frozen cylinders could move. Much of the damage is due to the salt water, but the linings vanished because they were overworked and overheated - while cruising on I95 at 55 to 60 mph?
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
dcsailing1
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by dcsailing1 »

All- #342 came with a spare- But---

I took a look at the Venture label on the trailer. It reads 7500 GVW like the Certificate of origin. But the tire sizes listed are for 14 inch tires/wheels not the 13 inch we all seem to have.

When I checked the sidewall info on the 13 inch spare it shows max load of 1610#. Thus 1610 X 4 = 6440#.

I believe the usual advice for tongue weight is about 10% of trailer gross weight. In several trips over the ODOT truck scales, (usually left on when the scales are closed here) I get around 6400 lbs on the trailer axles. I have not weighed our loaded tongue weight exactly, but from several weighs of the rear of our truck, empty and with the trailer, it looks like we are around 400 to 500 lbs on the tongue. The trailer pulls like it's a little light on the tongue but not a big deal with our one ton dually with an empty weight of around 8200#. Maybe I will move the axles back around 4 inches or so like Dan did when the brakes are replaced.

My math comes out as: 7500 – 6400 = 1100 lbs tongue weight vs 750 lbs it should be, means the tires are a few lbs short of the load rating they should be for this trailer at the max weigh rating of the trailer. Appears both the brakes and tires are overloaded as furnished to PCI by Venture.

I can find no ID info or ratings of any kind on the wheels. I finally found one manufacture of 13 X 4 wheels that had a rating over 1700lbs. I found several that stopped under 1400 lbs. Careful when buying a spare.

Our tires are Load Star 550 that I found under Kendra brand. here's a link: http://www.kendausa.com/specialtytires/trailer.html Several trailer parts sites don't stock the 13 in in our 8 ply or "D" rating.

Ron, any more info on the reinforced trailer would be appreciated. A closer look at ours shows it is sagging in the rear by 2 to 4 inches. Maybe ours is a pre- reinforced and it's something we should tend to?
Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

Dave -

You've mentioned a few things which we haven't discussed yet. They spec'd out the 13 inch wheels to get the boat lower to make it easier to launch and retrieve. The "D" rating of the tires brings it just about up to what the trailer and boat weigh, but around 400 pounds of that it is on the tongue - leaving around 6,000 on the tires - at least with the truck scales I've used. We've got some safety margin there. Swapping up to 14's would require some work - they may not fit inside of our fenders and to get bigger fenders might mean having to put spacers under the beams supporting the bunks to raise the boat as well. I know that my folded ama's are about 1/4 inch from the fenders now.

I've measured my tongue weight at about 440 pounds several times, with the sails (all 4 of them) and almost everything else packed into the bow of the boat as far forward as possible. I recall seeing under 400 if I don't pack the boat with all of the stuff forward. That's on the light side for this kind of trailer weight - it should be around 550 to 600. Note that the 50 hp Honda in back will add additional weight to the trailer but take more off of the tongue (the see-saw effect). I've been seriously considering moving the wheels back around 4 inches too - and that probably will happen this summer. I'll be shooting for around 550 pounds on the tongue - which will also have the benefit of getting 550 pounds off of the tires. Tongue weights in the 550 to 600 range may be a problem for some of the smaller and mid-size trucks and SUV's, and they will definitely need a weight distributing hitch to even attempt it.

Moving the wheels back will also help distribute the weight better on the trailer's main beams, and may stop the frame from what appears to be some sagging. I've noticed it too, but I haven't measured it yet. I'm sort of scared to do it. The boat's finally off my trailer now and the beams seem to have come up a drop in back. The stock Venture 5800 trailer was extended in back to help support the rear of the boat, but what's supporting the lengthened frame? Make you a bet that they left the wheels in the same place that they were for the shorter trailer. Moving the wheels back will only help, and it will get the boat lower in the water at the launch ramp. Most of the boats weight is back there. I think we all got the same trailer frame, unless Venture did some juggling with parts when they realized what may be happening. But, after speaking to them a dozen times in the last 5 weeks, I doubt if they would know it. They told me that I can't put disc brakes behind the 13 inch wheels!!!

Here's something else that I was going to mention. Surge brake actuators are definitely NOT made to be submerged into water, salt or otherwise. Power boats are almost never backed that far into the ramp. Sail boats are a whole different story - and these things usually get drowned when launching. There is a small hole in the cap to allow it to breathe (equalize pressure inside the master cylinder). I found congealed water inside my cylinder and brake lines when I removed it from the actuator. Since the gasket was in perfect shape and the fittings were solid, the water must have gotten in thru the hole. I think it would be a good idea to find the tiny hole in the cap and tape it off just before you back in, then REMOVE the tape when the trailer comes out. It must be able to breathe for the master cylinder and brakes to work.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

Forgot to mention this above when I was talking about the tongue going under water on most ramps. If the water happens to be salt, you have to do a thorough job of flushing out the actuator as QUICKLY as possible with fresh water. To me, than now means taking the small cover off at the front of the master cylinder, and carrying a 2 gallon garden sprayer in the truck filled with fresh water if the ramp does not have a convenient hose. You should also spray the brakes as best as you can, disc or drums. It would be best to wash out the drums using the garden hose adapter that's mounted on the trailer, but that could be tricky with no hose available. I've used maybe 10 boat ramps in the last 10 years and only 1 had a wash down hose.

Trailering a boat, especially a larger one or launching in salt water, can be a real pain in the _____. (insert appropriate word). You've got to make it as easy as you can by getting the right trailer and equipment and then taking care of it periodically. I apologize for harping on this for the last few weeks, but what happened with my trailer and the way all of them were equipped really annoys me. We're pulling as much weight as the tow vehicle (probably more than it for most of you) and this requires some planning to do it safely.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Mark G
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Mark G »

Have Tony and Will given us any indication that a resolution of the brake issue is forthcoming. At some point we're going to have to get louder.
Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

Mark -

So far the only positive thing from PCI that I've heard about is that all new trailers will have 4 wheel brakes. But they are still drums. I think PCI will be willing to order discs IF the new owners agrees to show up with a truck that is capable of handling disc brakes on a trailer - meaning they have some way of hooking up the backup lights to the trailer reverse brake solenoid that would be on these trailers. Just about every American truck (half ton or bigger) built over the last 10 years with a trailer towing package already has a pin on the round 7 pin connector for this purpose. My wifes Trailblazer even has one. No guarantee what they are doing in Japan or elsewhere. Anyone with a 4 pin trailer connector does NOT have it.

I'm not sure if there is enough interest from the members of our association to escalate this. Very few people have have expressed any opinion at all about the problem. As I said before - I think we could do something about getting 2 more drum brakes kits at cost for anyone who wants it, and maybe 2 (out of the required 4) at similar pricing. Hey - I mentioned the name of a store about 4 months ago who was selling the TieDown disc kits for about $90 apiece. That's probably cheaper than Venture pays for them. Did anyone other than me buy them?
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
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