Two wheel brakes on trailer

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Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

I covered some of this in the public section of the forum, but I would prefer to continue it under "Member's Only". It mainly concerns those of us who already have the Venture trailer. I have recommended to PCI that they rethink what they are buying from Venture - the trailer needs 4 brakes whether they are drum or disc. I do not blame PCI in any way - they went with the Venture recommendation of using 2 drum brakes on this 6,000 plus pound load. Also note that this probably concerns those of us who trailer for longer distances (over 25 miles?) or are backing up into salt water.

After perhaps 10 to 12 saltwater dunkings over 18 months, I had major brake problems on the drive from Florida to New Jersey. I had to stop in Tampa to have the brakes checked and the bearings on the braked wheels repacked with grease, and then in Jacksonville to have both drum systems rebuilt. Even then I wound up stopping every 45 minutes to cool down the brakes by carefully splashing some water on the drums. The infrared temp sensor that I carry on the truck was reading over 400 degrees on the drums at times. Note that the absolute last thing I want to do when trailering a heavy load is to use the brakes and I always drive that way when pulling something. "Coast" is almost my middle name.

There were basically two causes - immersing almost the whole trailer into salt water, and having a trailer that does not really have enough brake capacity to stop over 6,000 pounds of trailer and boat. The problem is finally fixed - I replaced the two wheel drum brakes with 4 wheel vented discs with aluminum calipers and stainelss steel rods, the old rusted master cylinder with a new one with stainless steel rods, and most of the solid brake lines with stainless steel.

OK - these are some of the things I learned about boat trailer brakes over the last month -

1. Many (perhaps half) of the states require brakes on ALL trailer wheels. This includes Maryland where the trailer was built, and Florida and New Jersey where mine lives. This applies to all trailers driving thru the states - you could be heading towards a state which does not passing thru one where it is required. Note that most of the east coast mandates 4 wheel brakes. Some others have performance requirements which a 2 wheel braked 6,000 plus pound trailer cannot possibly pass. Take a look at this to see what your state requires -
http://www.roadkingtrailers.com/brakelaws.htm

2. Drum brakes are notoriously troublesome in salt water - because it hard to get all of the salt water out of the enclosed drum/backing plate/ wheel cylinder area. Discs will almost dry out by themselves and will have minimal problems if your calipers have stainless steel rods and pistons in the wheel cylinders. Regardless, I would still flush everything out with fresh water. Carry a garden tank sprayer in the truck if you don't have fresh water at your launch ramp.

3. Trailered sail boats will normally dunk the actuator (inside the tongue) into salt water. If your actuator does not have stainless steel rods you should expect some rust after maybe 18 to 24 months. If the rod cannot move into or out of the master cylinder, then you will either lose or lockup the brakes. The actuator MUST be totally flushed out after any dunking - and with a tank sprayer if there is no hose at the ramp.

4. According to TieDown Engineering, the company that makes the actuator and brakes on our trailer - the total stopping capacity of any 10 inch two wheel brake system is approximately 3700 pounds. Our loaded trailer with two 10 inch brakes exceeds 6000.

5. The Tiedown Engineering manual that comes with their Model 8000 actuator on our trailers clearly warns about NOT putting brakes on ALL axles. The problems I had above are partially the result of this.

I am writing this to find out what our members want to do about this inadequate and possibly illegal trailer. With apologies to our owners in the legal profession, I'd rather not go that route. I think PCI is concerned about this, but Venture is just about ignoring it. They are blaming the "dealer" (PCI?) for ordering a trailer that may not conform to that state's laws, and have clearly never read the TieDown Engineering manuals or literature. "Didn't know that" is not an answer for a company that only builds boat trailers. I have already done all of the above modifications and I probably have the only really safe trailered Telstar 28 in the world.

Anyone who pulls their boat for more than a few miles or into salt water should be concerned about this. This topic really concerns us, not the public, and I'd like to keep it that way. Those who are planning on buying a Telstar should specifically ask for brakes on both axles, and preferably discs if you intend to launch in salt water.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Mark G
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Mark G »

I certainly assumed that the trailer I purchased was safe and legal. I also assumed that with some reasonable care it would stay that way. Since our purchase contract was with PCI, I assume that makes it PCI's problem. Also they are they only ones in a position to know if Venture provided the trailer knowing the brakes wouldn't meet spec in many states ( I assume Venture never told PCI, but...).

Let's hear what Tony and WIll have to say.
Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

Mark -

I'm not sure I want to force PCI into doing anything at this point. But I do believe that they are on our side. They're in the middle. I think that they went to Venture to have them recommend a trailer and this is what they (and we) got. I've spoken to Venture several times and they either don't understand or won't admit the problem. They contend that their dealers order the trailers and they leave it up to the dealers to order what is necessary, and that they have no comments about brake capacity or any recommendations from their suppliers. A dealer orders a trailer and they build it, period. How they can knowingly manufacture a 7,000 pound gvw trailer with brakes capable of safely stopping 3700 pounds is a mystery to me. Many (maybe even all) of the other trailer builders will not do this. I've never seen a tandem axle trailer with brakes only on one of them, and I've owned 4 from other manufacturers - two boat trailers and two car haulers. My local dealer told me that they won't order or build anything like this. They could be liable if anything goes wrong.

I've spoken to Will and Tony several times about this and will call again. No real answers yet, and they were somewhat surprised about what I told them. I assume that they hope this just goes away. Anyway, I'd like to wait for some other feedback from our owners and members before we take this any further. Maybe no one even cares? But I do have two recommendations -

1. If you're buying a new Telstar from PCI - ask them for 4 wheel brakes. If salt water is involved, also ask for discs. As far as cost goes, 4 discs do not cost any more than 4 drums, and maybe $250 more (in total) than 2 of either.

2. If you already have one of these trailers and you tend to move the boat more than a few miles, seriously think about upgrading the system by either adding 2 more drums or replacing the 2 drums with 4 discs and the required disc brake master cylinder.

As far as maintenance goes - Besides flushing out the brakes themselves, you must also thoroughly flush out the actuator (in the tongue) with fresh water and inspect it often. Any rust on the two master cylinder rods (going forward to the sliding part of the tongue) could give you serious and potentially dangerous problems. There is an inspection cover on the front - remove it to look inside. Maybe even keep it off or use thumb screws to hold it so you can check it often.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
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simonhayes
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by simonhayes »

I trailer my boat for 2-300 miles and although, so far (touch wood) I have not had any problems - I am certainly going to check this now.

There clearly has been mistakes or oversights made by Ventura, PCI or both. I completely agree that it seems ridiculous that you would sell a trailer with brakes that don't meet the GVW rating. We clearly need to get the trailers up to safety and legal spec. Perhaps the way forward is to ask PCI / Ventura to sell us the requirement equipment (additional 2 brakes, upgrade option for 4 disk brakes etc ) at cost for those members who have already purchased the trailer.

I would certainly support you approaching PCI (since they are technically the dealer here ) on behalf of the owners to find a resolution

Thanks

Simon
Ex-Telstar 28 Owner
San Francisco Bay, CA
dcsailing1
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by dcsailing1 »

From the Venture website:
“Do I need brakes on my trailer?
Brakes are advised on all axles. But remember that laws are different with each state. Talk to your local DMV for further information.”
So it appears that PCI and Venture have a lot of unsafe trailers in operation. Venture’s recommendations are not consistent with what Venture has been selling to PCI or listed in the Venture catalog.
A further review of Venture’s site shows the “standard” is one brake on all their tandem axel bunk trailers, i.e.; VBT series, which is ours. The model number on ours is VBT 5800 which doesn’t show on Venture’s site catalog. There are VBT5600 and VBT5900 which both show 15” tires and wheels. So it appears that Venture builds a special 13” wheel trailer for PCI, that PCI modifies with cradles for the T28.
Our Venture Certificate of Origin shows: GVWR 7500, Ship wt. 1700, thus the 5800 in our model number. The first registration in California shows trailer weight of 1960, so I guess PCI adds about 260 lbs of cradles to the trailers. (Trailers in CA have to be weighed as license fees are based on the weight.) The certificate also lists PCI as the distributor of the trailer. The trailer weight capacity appears to be OK, but not the brakes.
Bottom line is these trailers are under braked as furnished from both factories with tandem axles and brakes on only one of them. So when there is a wreck that is facilitated by the inability to stop in time, both manufactures are potentially going to be on the hook, and now we as operators as well, since we have been made aware of the problem.
Suggested that we all also check the 2” trailer ball we are using to insure it’s weight rating is over 7500#, i.e.: 8000#. Many 2” trailer balls are less then 8000# rating.
I Think Ron’s advice is spot on and will be ordering another set of brakes. On second thought, with no long trips planned, I will wait a bit to see if PCI or Venture steps forward to help correct this oversight.
Rats, just what I needed another project.
Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

Dave -

You're right about the 2 inch ball. For the TieDown Model 80 actuator to work properly you've got to a have an 8,000 pound rating on it. It will be stamped 8,000 pounds on the ball! That will mean at least a 1 inch threaded bolt under it as well. Mine has a 1 1/4 inch threaded shaft to work with the Equal-I-zer hitch. I would also not use sleeves or anything else to let the 1 inch thread live in the 1 1/4 inch mounting hole. It might not be a bad idea to take a look at any Equal-I-zer hitches set up by someone else (other than you) to make sure that the ball has the correct mounting size.

Also - and I'm not sure if they are doing it. You can put 12 inch brakes behind a 15 inch wheel which would give you over 5,000 pounds of braking capacity per axle. It still wouldn't help us at 6500.

I like your first line from their web site - "Brakes are advised on all axles". They obviously did not tell me that over the phone.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Jerry
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Jerry »

Ron,

If you are looking for opinions I will offer mine.

When going over the trailer on delivery Tony was specific to point out how he ordered the spring system rather then what Venture recommended to him because he felt it worked better in the long run. Since PCI puts thought into the trailer it is disappointing they did not also put it into the brakes. I had some overheating on my trip home but assumed it was just the adjustment of the breaks (being new) in the drums and I was planning to do some readjusting over the summer. I do not currently have the salt water issues as I am keeping the boat on lakes. However, reading this and the other post I am determined to switch to 4 wheel disks for safety alone and to know I have done the best I can for protection.

If PCI (or this group) could offer a discount through TieDown that would be great. While I would like to consider it a PCI problem I would think it is more Venture regardless of who is "legally" responsible. I paid a price for the trailer I have and presumable it would have been a higher price for more trailer and even then it would probably not be what I want now (SS disks - not drums).

What I would like most is to know what specific parts I could order that would fit on the trailer PCI supplied to me.

Jerry
Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

Jerry -

Not sure if you can get any stainless rotors behind the 13 inch wheels yet. The wheels are somewhat undersized for this application. I wound up ordering four 9.6 inch Tiedown disc system kits with it's aluminum calipers and stainless pistons and rods in the wheel cylinder. They will fit the 13 inch wheels, but their stainless system will not. The vented rotors are galvanized and they are exposed to the air and to a fresh water hose so it will do a lot better in salt water than the enclosed drums. I also wound up replacing the Tiedown master cylinder with a new one that is disc brake compatible and that now has stainless rods and pistons. I also needed one of their backup solenoids and I got the one that puts the brake fluid back into the master, rather than just shuts it off. This solenoid will allow you to back up up a hill after you stop on one - the other will not. Some of the solid brake lines were already frozen with rust (the fittings at least) so I woulnd up replacing some of them with stainless. I also needed 4 flexible hoses, 3 "T"'s, and 2 male to male adapters.

Basically, I spend about $90 for each of the 4 disc kits (includes bearings, lug nuts, caps, etc.), about $75 for the new master cylinder, $50 for the backup solenoid, another $20 or so for the fittings, and around $50 for the 4 flex lines. You may not have to replace your solid brake lines, but the 8 foot section of stainless that I bought cost around $20. I got the disc brake kits from trailersuperstore.com ( http://www.easternmarine.com/ ) and the other parts from champion trailers ( http://www.championtrailers.com/index.html ).

The 9.6 Tiedown kits were on sale last week for $89 each, about $20 off of their normal (and very reasonable) price. Installing everything was straightforward for someone with the right tools and a working knowledge of brake systems. I can document the whole procedure for anyone who wants to try it. Note that it would be much easier to do with the boat off of the trailer. I did not have that option. The drums had already frozen and I had to disable the hydraulics.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Ron
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by Ron »

Jerry had sent me a message with the following questions. I figure others may have the same questions, so I'm copying it here, along with the response -

I would like to know as much about the process as possible. I do a lot of my own car repairs (including brakes) but have never worked on a trailer. I addition to what you have put on the site I have questions like:

1, How is the drum system vs. the disk system attached to the trailer?( I will go look at noon today to see if I can figure it out)
2, Assuming the single brake line comes down to a T now and then out to the wheel cylinders do you do you just add another T out near the existing cylinders to feed the other wheel?
3, Are the instructions on the replacement parts for the master cylinder pretty good? This is not a system I am at all familiar with.
4, I have bleed many brakes in the past but always had the ability to have someone pumping them. How do you do it in this case?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) There is a plate with 4 holes welded to the ends of BOTH axle tubes. The caliper mounting bracket attaches to the same 4 holes as the drum backing plate. Easy.

2) The single axle drum system has a solid 3/16 brake tube that runs across the axle that's attached hard to each wheel cylinder. Since calipers float (move a drop), you'll need to get 4 flex lines to attach the hard lines to the cylinders. I wasn't able to use the brake line that runs across (fittings were rusted on) so I bought a new 8 foot stainless line to run across the FRAME rail instead. Then I used 3 "T's", 2 one foot ss lines and 2 male-male couplers to make all of the connections. Your boat is newer and you may be able to salvage that brake line. A little harder than the above, but still fairly easy if the boat is off of the trailer.

3) Probably hardest job of the 4. You have the option of buying a new Model 80E actuator for about $225 (if you can find one - I couldn't) or the master cylinder for about $75. Venture may be willing to sell you one - I never asked. Easier to do on a bench, so remove the entire actuator (3 bolts and brake line). I can document the whole job for the list. There is one trick to allow removal of the master cylinder easily which I can document as well. Mount the backup solenoid on the master now too. I thought this was fairly easy, but I've been building and restoring old cars for 30 years - from the ground up.

4) The Tiedown actuator has a hole in the case for a big screwdriver to be inserted to move the bracket at the end of the piston rod. Very easy to bleed the brakes then. Just "pump" the screwdriver with the bleed tube at the cylinder hanging into a bottle of used brake fluid. Or you can use one of the power bleeders if you have it.

You should have gotten the Model 80 instruction manual with the boat. Some of the above is in there, with photos and diagrams AND with the warning about installing brakes on only one axle of a multi-axle trailer. If not, you can download it from TieDown Engineering.

Addendum - If your trailer is over 2 years old and has been in salt water numerous times, you may want to replace the entire acutator. These things do not have a history of lasting that long in this environment. The newer ones (maybe 1 year old?) have stainless steel rods and pistons on the master cylinder which will help longevity. The replacement master cylinder should also have the newer ss parts - and the wheel cylinders in the new calipers are also stainless. The drum brake cylinders did not have stainless anything. If ANY of these rods or pistons hang up because of rust you either lose your brakes, lock them up, or partially lock them so the wheels overheat and the tire blows out.

I FINALLY made it into the water yesterday. Towed the boat about 30 miles and the 4 wheel vented discs are MUCH better than the two wheel drum system. Night and day. It would be nice if the rain finally stops now.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
gary green
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Two wheel brakes on trailer

Post by gary green »

This whole issue has me very concerned. I am a woodworker and by no means a mechanic. I would not be confident pursuing this kind of modification project. I am hoping that either Venture and/or PCI step up and do the right thing for its customers. I've learned in my business that insuring Customer Satisfaction should be primary and the ultimate motivation to service owners. Customers should never be held hostage to disagreements on conflicts that might arise between vendors and manufcaturers no matter the cost.

I hope this is resolved before someone is hurt or injured.

gary g.
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