I’m currently shopping around for sail to improve downwind performance and would like to hear what other T2 owners are doing. I’m looking for something simple enough for the single handed sailor and for coastal cruising and those downwind return trips from the Bahamas. Also, the boat needs to handle well under autopilot. As I read it, the screacher sail offered by PC provides a convenient option, since it’s set up on a furler, and has better low wind performance than the genoa, but isn’t going to help much on a broad reach. The asymmetric spinnaker seems to be next option, for which there seem to be many options and opinions. There is a UK sail loft just near me and they sell a cruising spinnaker they call the Flasher. Does anyone have any experience with this?
Also, are there any precautions to be considered for asymmetrics and special considerations for multihulls? For example I read somewhere that someone recommended getting one 90% of the recommended size for multihulls to minimize the risk of being overpowered.
Andrewm
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What downwind sail to buy?
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andrewm
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Ron
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What downwind sail to buy?
Andrew -
I've got both the screecher and asymmetrical spinnaker - both made by David Bierig. I am very happy with the quality of both. But neither is a true downwind sail (if such a thing even exists on a fore-aft marconi rig). If doing it single-handed is more important than anything else, I'd opt for the screecher, although the bigger asymmetrical may do a slightly better job of moving the boat "downwind". On the other hand, I have used the asymmetrical single-handed, but it will take some work to get it up or down and then back into the bag. Having the ability to roll any sail out and then back in when needed is a nice bonus. A good compromise may be to look at some of the asymmetricals that have a wire in their luff and that can be rolled up. They're a little flatter than most, but should outperform the screecher once the wind gets behind you. By the way, the secret of getting many multihulls to perform downwind is to fall off a drop and improve your VMG (velocity made good). You may be going the "wrong" way, but you will get to where you want to be faster.
Reducing the size of any sail will reduce it's performance in lighter air. Better to keep your eyes open and lose or shrink the sail when needed. But note that I've been knocked-down and broached in monohulls and this attitude may not work all of the time when you don't have 9,000 pounds under you to bring you back up. My compromise now is to fly these things under somewhat safer conditions, and to keep the two sheets nearby if you guessed wrong.
One thing that I really want to improve in the next few months is to add the ability to move the screecher / asymmetrical sheet block foreward. Attaching it to the life-line U bolt near the back of the ama works best only under some conditions. I had a Wichard sliding car on my last boats toe rail mounted track and it really helped to move the spinnaker sheet block around. I plan on adding a 4 or 5 foot track to the top edge of the ama coaming when I get the boat back to Florida in October. This track will also allow me to use a Barber-hauler to move the genoa sheet outboard on a reach, and it will also hold a cleat, etc., when needed. The track is better than a U bolt there - you can adjust the car and and it will fit under the deck when the ama is folded in and the car and other accessories are removed.
I've got both the screecher and asymmetrical spinnaker - both made by David Bierig. I am very happy with the quality of both. But neither is a true downwind sail (if such a thing even exists on a fore-aft marconi rig). If doing it single-handed is more important than anything else, I'd opt for the screecher, although the bigger asymmetrical may do a slightly better job of moving the boat "downwind". On the other hand, I have used the asymmetrical single-handed, but it will take some work to get it up or down and then back into the bag. Having the ability to roll any sail out and then back in when needed is a nice bonus. A good compromise may be to look at some of the asymmetricals that have a wire in their luff and that can be rolled up. They're a little flatter than most, but should outperform the screecher once the wind gets behind you. By the way, the secret of getting many multihulls to perform downwind is to fall off a drop and improve your VMG (velocity made good). You may be going the "wrong" way, but you will get to where you want to be faster.
Reducing the size of any sail will reduce it's performance in lighter air. Better to keep your eyes open and lose or shrink the sail when needed. But note that I've been knocked-down and broached in monohulls and this attitude may not work all of the time when you don't have 9,000 pounds under you to bring you back up. My compromise now is to fly these things under somewhat safer conditions, and to keep the two sheets nearby if you guessed wrong.
One thing that I really want to improve in the next few months is to add the ability to move the screecher / asymmetrical sheet block foreward. Attaching it to the life-line U bolt near the back of the ama works best only under some conditions. I had a Wichard sliding car on my last boats toe rail mounted track and it really helped to move the spinnaker sheet block around. I plan on adding a 4 or 5 foot track to the top edge of the ama coaming when I get the boat back to Florida in October. This track will also allow me to use a Barber-hauler to move the genoa sheet outboard on a reach, and it will also hold a cleat, etc., when needed. The track is better than a U bolt there - you can adjust the car and and it will fit under the deck when the ama is folded in and the car and other accessories are removed.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
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gary green
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What downwind sail to buy?
My boat was one of the early production models and there was no roller screecher at that time so I purchased my boat with the Asymmetrical spinnaker. I immediately started to search for a furling system for it as I one-man my Telstar sailing alone. I found the Roll-Gen from Bamar to be a great system for this sail giving me the ability to release and roll up the sail from the cockpit. I believe I posted the dimensions on the old site for the top of mast to the end of the bowsprit. The product was given an excellent review by Practical Sailor.
The product is distributed in the US by Veeco but if you go to the Bamar website and click on Roll-Gen they have some videos to show how the system works.
gary g.
The product is distributed in the US by Veeco but if you go to the Bamar website and click on Roll-Gen they have some videos to show how the system works.
gary g.
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andrewm
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What downwind sail to buy?
Thanks for that input. It sounds like a furling asymmetric is a good way to go and I will check that out, although it will add to the cost.
As Ron has done, I have used the bolt near the back of the ama for a barber-hauler on the genoa, but also felt it wasn't quite at the right location. The track is a good idea and will also address the problem of hanging fenders. I will need to check on my boat that there is still enough clearance when the amas are folded in.
Andrewm
As Ron has done, I have used the bolt near the back of the ama for a barber-hauler on the genoa, but also felt it wasn't quite at the right location. The track is a good idea and will also address the problem of hanging fenders. I will need to check on my boat that there is still enough clearance when the amas are folded in.
Andrewm
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wingman
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What downwind sail to buy?
I found that the T28 has measurements similar to the J-80, so I bought a J-80 spinnaker used for $400 off their website. It was almost like new.
Here are the measurement comparisons between my J-80 spinnaker and the Bierig that Will lent me.
English Metric
Measurements Bierig J-80 Bierig J-80
luff 37.5 40 11.43 12.19
leach 32.75 31.9 9.98 9.72
foot 22.1 25.5 6.73 7.77
Half Width 20.6 22.25 6.27 6.78
Area (metric) 56.83 63.73
The Biering is also heavier material, so for cruising it is probably more durable.
Two people who are well trained can handle a symmetric in most conditions, but it takes some coordination. It is better with three.
Stay away from socks if you are going to race. The socks work well if you roll the jib before launching and unroll after takedown, but that is not a racing maneuver. Furlers may work for racing, but I would wonder about the ability to go deep downwind, as you may not be able to roll the luff to windward as you can with an asymmetric. I thought that I would be better off reaching downwind, but VMG says that in moderate to heavy air, you want to be below 140 degrees.
The other caution on the furler is whether you can take the furled spinnaker down so it does not disturb the airflow over the jib. Again, cruising it does not matter, but racing that may cause you to lose speed upwind. If you can fit the furled spinnaker between the furler and the pulpit and get the jib sheets over the sail while it is on deck, that might work, but your sail will take a beating from water and people stepping on it.
John
Here are the measurement comparisons between my J-80 spinnaker and the Bierig that Will lent me.
English Metric
Measurements Bierig J-80 Bierig J-80
luff 37.5 40 11.43 12.19
leach 32.75 31.9 9.98 9.72
foot 22.1 25.5 6.73 7.77
Half Width 20.6 22.25 6.27 6.78
Area (metric) 56.83 63.73
The Biering is also heavier material, so for cruising it is probably more durable.
Two people who are well trained can handle a symmetric in most conditions, but it takes some coordination. It is better with three.
Stay away from socks if you are going to race. The socks work well if you roll the jib before launching and unroll after takedown, but that is not a racing maneuver. Furlers may work for racing, but I would wonder about the ability to go deep downwind, as you may not be able to roll the luff to windward as you can with an asymmetric. I thought that I would be better off reaching downwind, but VMG says that in moderate to heavy air, you want to be below 140 degrees.
The other caution on the furler is whether you can take the furled spinnaker down so it does not disturb the airflow over the jib. Again, cruising it does not matter, but racing that may cause you to lose speed upwind. If you can fit the furled spinnaker between the furler and the pulpit and get the jib sheets over the sail while it is on deck, that might work, but your sail will take a beating from water and people stepping on it.
John
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Ron
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What downwind sail to buy?
John -
My Bierig asymmetrical is 1.5 oz rip-stop nylon, but he'll build anything you want. Your J80 must be .75 oz. That works well in light air, but it could blow out when the wind picks up, especially on a non heeling multihull that won't spill much air. The 1.5 is a good compromise if you're limited to one or the other.
You mention symmetrical - does that mean that your chute is one? The numbers you posted don't seem to indicate that (luff and leech are significantly different) and you don't mention using a pole. Two people handling one of these on anything bigger than a dinghy could get very interesting.
Pole or no pole - light air may be OK, but you've got to plan for sudden conditions other than light - especially on a boat that does not come back after a knock-down. I was knocked-down on a 23,000 pound boat just outside of Annapolis with an asymmetrical about 12 years ago by some sort of fluke wind (steady 12 knot breeze jumped up to 43 knots in 1 or 2 seconds). Surrounded by a number of sail boats, we were the only ones affected by this event, and we got dragged sideways for maybe 150 feet (with the spreaders in the water) before one of us could get to the sheet. Simultaneously, the wind returned to 12 knots and we popped back up. Any multihull would have gone over on that day.
A sock can get in the way when racing, but it's the best way for 2 people to safely set and take down a larger asymmetric on a 28 foot or larger boat. Makes it a lot easier.
My Bierig asymmetrical is 1.5 oz rip-stop nylon, but he'll build anything you want. Your J80 must be .75 oz. That works well in light air, but it could blow out when the wind picks up, especially on a non heeling multihull that won't spill much air. The 1.5 is a good compromise if you're limited to one or the other.
You mention symmetrical - does that mean that your chute is one? The numbers you posted don't seem to indicate that (luff and leech are significantly different) and you don't mention using a pole. Two people handling one of these on anything bigger than a dinghy could get very interesting.
Pole or no pole - light air may be OK, but you've got to plan for sudden conditions other than light - especially on a boat that does not come back after a knock-down. I was knocked-down on a 23,000 pound boat just outside of Annapolis with an asymmetrical about 12 years ago by some sort of fluke wind (steady 12 knot breeze jumped up to 43 knots in 1 or 2 seconds). Surrounded by a number of sail boats, we were the only ones affected by this event, and we got dragged sideways for maybe 150 feet (with the spreaders in the water) before one of us could get to the sheet. Simultaneously, the wind returned to 12 knots and we popped back up. Any multihull would have gone over on that day.
A sock can get in the way when racing, but it's the best way for 2 people to safely set and take down a larger asymmetric on a 28 foot or larger boat. Makes it a lot easier.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
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Ron
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What downwind sail to buy?
John -
Just took a 2nd quick look at your numbers. I think it could be classified as an oversize spinnaker (-3 seconds/mile) based on the luff length, etc. and maybe even illegal based on the mid-girth width (SMG). That can't exceed 1.8 x J, and an asymmetric also can't exceed the square footage of the largest symmetrical that can be carried by the same boat. The rules are very fuzzy and can be interpretted and enforced differently across regions. These are PHRF rules but multihulls may have similar rating factors.
Just took a 2nd quick look at your numbers. I think it could be classified as an oversize spinnaker (-3 seconds/mile) based on the luff length, etc. and maybe even illegal based on the mid-girth width (SMG). That can't exceed 1.8 x J, and an asymmetric also can't exceed the square footage of the largest symmetrical that can be carried by the same boat. The rules are very fuzzy and can be interpretted and enforced differently across regions. These are PHRF rules but multihulls may have similar rating factors.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
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wingman
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What downwind sail to buy?
The Chesapeake Multihull Association uses a complex formula that factors in the spinnaker size. I do not see a way to attach files here, but will be glad to send it to anyone who wants a copy. My email is jenderle@integ.com.
The spinnaker is for a J-80, which can race PHRF, but usually does one-design. I think the penalty is just based on the measurements, so the larger the sail, the greater the penalty. They do differentiate between a screacher and a spinnaker, giving the latter a penalty.
We had the spinnaker up in 20 - 25 knot winds, and it seemed to do OK. I agree that a sudden 43-knot wind could really ruin your day, but in that case I guess I would rather have the sail blow out than take a knockdown. I was sure glad to have the light weight when we were trying to sail in 3 knots Friday night.
The original idea was to buy a cheap spinnaker that we could use until we could afford a new one. Our thought was to get local sailmakers to come sailing with us to see if they could build a better sail. May still do that, but this one is very pretty and seems to work well.
John
The spinnaker is for a J-80, which can race PHRF, but usually does one-design. I think the penalty is just based on the measurements, so the larger the sail, the greater the penalty. They do differentiate between a screacher and a spinnaker, giving the latter a penalty.
We had the spinnaker up in 20 - 25 knot winds, and it seemed to do OK. I agree that a sudden 43-knot wind could really ruin your day, but in that case I guess I would rather have the sail blow out than take a knockdown. I was sure glad to have the light weight when we were trying to sail in 3 knots Friday night.
The original idea was to buy a cheap spinnaker that we could use until we could afford a new one. Our thought was to get local sailmakers to come sailing with us to see if they could build a better sail. May still do that, but this one is very pretty and seems to work well.
John
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wingman
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What downwind sail to buy?
My use of "symmetrical" was an accident. We use an asymmetrical on the sprit.
One other note is that when we race, we always have the spin sheet in someone's hand. We NEVER cleat it. Thus, on a potential knockdown, the sheet is blown. I have also rigged a vang, but blowing the vang does not give one the same bang for the buck that it does for a monohull in a knockdown.
John
One other note is that when we race, we always have the spin sheet in someone's hand. We NEVER cleat it. Thus, on a potential knockdown, the sheet is blown. I have also rigged a vang, but blowing the vang does not give one the same bang for the buck that it does for a monohull in a knockdown.
John
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Ron
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What downwind sail to buy?
John -
Doesn't matter that the sail was built for a J80, you're using it on a T2. There are published numbers on the T2. "J" is 11 feet, "LLJ" (PCI's term) or "SL" (spinnaker luff length) is 36' 6". Going over "SL" will produce a handicap, and you can't exceed J x 1.8 for spinnaker midgirth (SMG). Not sure if the latter is a 2nd penalty or flat-out illegal. I won't mention this to Ed Boyle unless I bring my boat down there to race, which I'm probably not. He offered me space on his dock for part of the summer, but I'm running out of time. I'm assuming that Ed is still the handicapper for the Chesapeake Multihull Association. He has the same job down in Charlotte Harbor (Punta Gorda). I think he gave me a .93 handicap down there.
Doesn't matter that the sail was built for a J80, you're using it on a T2. There are published numbers on the T2. "J" is 11 feet, "LLJ" (PCI's term) or "SL" (spinnaker luff length) is 36' 6". Going over "SL" will produce a handicap, and you can't exceed J x 1.8 for spinnaker midgirth (SMG). Not sure if the latter is a 2nd penalty or flat-out illegal. I won't mention this to Ed Boyle unless I bring my boat down there to race, which I'm probably not. He offered me space on his dock for part of the summer, but I'm running out of time. I'm assuming that Ed is still the handicapper for the Chesapeake Multihull Association. He has the same job down in Charlotte Harbor (Punta Gorda). I think he gave me a .93 handicap down there.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
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