Garhauer line control genoa cars

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Mark G
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Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Mark G »

Yes, it is parallel to both. The distance between the edge and the cabin is essentially the same for the length of the track. The portside track is installed farther inboard than the stbd side track.

If I could get the car and fittings to be an inch high or less above the track, I would gain about a 1/2" of clearance to the inside, because it would fit below the window. An alternative would be that nothing above the track car itself could be any wider than the track (1 1/8"?).
Ron
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Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Ron »

I have an idea but only Dan would know if would work. If we lost a sheeve at each end, making it 2 to 1 instead of 4 to 1, would the forces be too high for the average owner? That would cut the height down a lot. I'm going to call them this afternoon or tomorrow to see what other options we have. Smaller sheeves or fiddle at each end or ??

This could be a problem for the older boats only. I've got 1 3/4 inch from the middle of the track to the cabin side at the front. I need to find out what size the sheeves / plates are and how much clearance Dan has on his setup.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Dan

Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Dan »

Ron-

I haven't had a chance to go by the boat and take photos. Hopefully, I'll be able to do that on Sunday. Unfortunately, we're expecting about a foot of snow tomorrow, so, I'll be brushing the snow off before I can do much of anything. ;)

BTW, I think the two-to-one purchase might be a bit on the low side, especially if you're fighting against the full genny under 15-20 knots of wind. :)
Ron
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Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Ron »

Dan -

I think you're right about the 2 to 1 for most people. 3 to 1 is possible if we have a double at the front and single with becket on the slider. but the problem is mostly at the front with the higher car. A fiddle back there could work in this case. I've been playing phone tag with Garhauer. I'm going to call back later this afternoon. But I'm goin' sailin' now. Another awful day - 12 knots out of the east, sunny, and 82 degrees. I'm gettin' used to this.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Dan

Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Dan »

Ron-

You keep talking about what terrible weather you're having and I'm gonna have to send a thunderstorm or such your way... I know a weather goddess. :) I should have measurements and photos this weekend... even if I have to shovel a foot of snow out of the way to get them. :)
Ron
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Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Ron »

OK - Finally connected with Bill at Garhauer. The standard line control sheeves on both cars are 1.8 inches wide including the top plates - with the fixed car having 2 stacked sheeves with becket and the slider having the fiddle. He will do almost anything we want to make it fit. Try asking Schaeffer, Harken, Ronstan or xxx to modify one of their systems for maybe 10 to 15 boats !!!! You won't get it unless your last name is Ellison or similar. Besides making top quality equipment for a reasonable price, they have always excelled at customer service - before and after the sale.

We can go smaller with the same layout (4 to 1 purchase) - meaning maybe 1 1/4 inch wide sheeves and top plates. Or even smaller if necessary. I'm not sure if this would stop the stacked car from still rubbing on the window on some of the boats. The double height could be a problem.

We could put a single sheeve with becket on the slider and a fiddle on the fixed car, giving a 3 to 1 purchase. And use smaller sheeves as well if needed, This would lower the height of the fixed car to get it under the window. Two fiddles is another option - with the becket on the fixed forward car.

Finally, we have to find out if the boat comes with a Schaeffer track. I'm pretty sure it does becasuse the standard genoa car is a Schaeffer. This track is slightly different than all of the other 1 1/4 inch tracks out there. It's got a thicker top plate and this could be one of the reasons why one of the owners had several problems installing his Garhauer genoa cars. The standard ball bearing Garhauer will not fit this track properly.

Any of these would probably fit my boat, which has 1 3/4 inches from the middle of the track to the cabin up front and 3 1/2 inches at the back. I'm not sure which hull number got the new walkboards and ledge. There may have been two previous designs on the boat also which changed the size and shape of the ledge holding the genoa track. I have to find out the exact distance from the track to the cabin wall on some other boats to see what version will work on all of them.

I'm leaning towards the 3 to 1 purchase with fiddle on the stationary car and sheeve with becket on the slider, but ??? I had Garhaouer geneoa cars with a 4 to 1 purchase on my last boat, with a genoa the size of the entire Telstar sail plan (deck sweeping 155 on a 62 foot mast). That boat called for 4 to 1, not sure if we really need it here. We have to keep the cars low to clear the window on some of the boats.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Dan

Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Dan »

Ron wrote:OK - Finally connected with Bill at Garhauer. The standard line control sheeves on both cars are 1.8 inches wide including the top plates - with the fixed car having 2 stacked sheeves with becket and the slider having the fiddle. He will do almost anything we want to make it fit. Try asking Schaeffer, Harken, Ronstan or xxx to modify one of their systems for maybe 10 to 15 boats !!!! You won't get it unless your last name is Ellison or similar. Besides making top quality equipment for a reasonable price, they have always excelled at customer service - before and after the sale.
Their gear is quite nice, especially given the price and customer service.
We can go smaller with the same layout (4 to 1 purchase) - meaning maybe 1 1/4 inch wide sheeves and top plates. Or even smaller if necessary. I'm not sure if this would stop the stacked car from still rubbing on the window on some of the boats. The double height could be a problem.
At least on my boat, clearance was only a problem at the very front end of the track, where the car wasn't really on the track. Moving it back to where it is now, as seen in the photos, aft of a track-mounted cleat, it is just fine. In theory, this shouldn't be much of a problem, as the track is 1-1/4" wide to begin with. Hopefully, on most boats, the track isn't under the window. If track isn't under the window and has even a tiny gap, then the sheaves should fit.
We could put a single sheeve with becket on the slider and a fiddle on the fixed car, giving a 3 to 1 purchase. And use smaller sheeves as well if needed, This would lower the height of the fixed car to get it under the window. Two fiddles is another option - with the becket on the fixed forward car.
As for the purchase ratio, I think it needs to be 3:1 at a minimum. The Telstar does have a fairly decent size genny, and unlike a monohull, when the wind picks up, it doesn't bleed off much of the force by heeling.
Finally, we have to find out if the boat comes with a Schaeffer track. I'm pretty sure it does becasuse the standard genoa car is a Schaeffer. This track is slightly different than all of the other 1 1/4 inch tracks out there. It's got a thicker top plate and this could be one of the reasons why one of the owners had several problems installing his Garhauer genoa cars. The standard ball bearing Garhauer will not fit this track properly.
I don't know if the track is Schaeffer, but the cars I ordered did fit. IIRC, I did tell them that the track was a Schaeffer track though, when I placed my order, so they may have made the adjustment for the thicker T-section due to that.
Any of these would probably fit my boat, which has 1 3/4 inches from the middle of the track to the cabin up front and 3 1/2 inches at the back. I'm not sure which hull number got the new walkboards and ledge. There may have been two previous designs on the boat also which changed the size and shape of the ledge holding the genoa track. I have to find out the exact distance from the track to the cabin wall on some other boats to see what version will work on all of them.
As I said earlier, I should have some measurements and photos this weekend, provided we only get a foot of snow... :) It might be good to make up a table with the hull number and measurements of various boats, to see if this is design change related or not.
I'm leaning towards the 3 to 1 purchase with fiddle on the stationary car and sheeve with becket on the slider, but ??? I had Garhaouer geneoa cars with a 4 to 1 purchase on my last boat, with a genoa the size of the entire Telstar sail plan (deck sweeping 155 on a 62 foot mast). That boat called for 4 to 1, not sure if we really need it here. We have to keep the cars low to clear the window on some of the boats.
I don't know if a 4:1 is necessary, but just remember the forces on the sails on a multihull are generally higher than they are on a monohull with the same size sails, since the boat can’t bleed off excess power by heeling.

As an example, my friend's Dehler 33 has a 155% genoa that measures about 360 sq. ft., yet his primary winches are only Lewmar 30STs. Given that his boat is a racer/cruiser, I seriously doubt the winches are undersized by much, if at all. The standard genoa winches on the Telstar 28 are Lewmar 40STs, which give 33% more leverage in low gear, for a sail 2/3's the size—effectively giving the Telstar sailor twice the leverage at the winch of the Dehler—per square foot of sail area.

While this is only a single example, I'd also point out how heavy the rigging is on the Telstar 28, for a 28' boat—because it is a multihull. Some of the sailors on this forum might need the 4:1 purchase to deal with the full genny at the top of its wind speed range.
Mark G
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Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Mark G »

Even if 3 to 1 isn't enough, it would still allow adjustments when the tension was off without going out of the cockpit. That's a lot better than having to climb out and pull the pin.

If we do the fiddle on the fixed car and the single with a becket on the slider: what are the dimensions? Can Garhauer provide a sketch with some measurements so we can check against our actuals before they do the mods? By the way, I did specify schaefer tracks and the cars fit the track.
Ron
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Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Ron »

Mark -

I've got much more room than you at the front of the track and even more at the back end. Based on your diagram, the middle of the track is approx. 1 1/8 inch from the cabin wall. If we used 1 1/4 inch sheaves and top plate, that would put approx 5/8 inch (1/2 of the sheave) into a space that is approx 1 1/8 wide. Should fit. 1 1/2 inch sheeves could work as well. Other problem is height. A stacked double will NOT work because of the even closer spacing to the window. We have to keep the height UNDER 1 1/8 inch. I'm leaning towards a fiddle style up front and either a fiddle or single with becket as the slider. Since the "stock" Garhauer sliding car already has the fiddle, maybe I should ask them to do the same at the front end? It depends on whether or not he can do a 1 1/4 inch fiddle with becket on the fixed car. If he can't, then we've got a 3 to 1 purchase on the system. But that should be OK - see below.

Dan -

My C400 had Lewmar Ocean 58's as primaries, and half of the crew could not effectively grind them in when the wind picked up - at either speed. I even had a 10 inch double handed handle with bearings to help. Got that handle on the Telstar now, but have never had a need to use it yet. The effective forces (with winch ratio applied) are maybe 1/4 of what I had back then. That sail alone had well over 600 square feet of laminated cloth. The 4 to 1 purchase was OK for that boat.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Mark G
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Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:26 pm
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Garhauer line control genoa cars

Post by Mark G »

The Slider I got first came with a fiddle block. The problem was the thickness and the width. When placed on top of the sliding car, the cheekplate rubbed the window. We then tried stacked sheeves on the slider and it rubbed the window too. I think the best alternative is a 3 to 1 with the stacked blocks or fiddle at the fixed end and a single sheeve with a becket on the slider. I would like to keep the overall height at 7/8" above the track in case the window insn't perfectly parallel to the deck or the sealant is a bit thicker. Another alternative is that nothing on the slider above the car itself is any wider than the track. If Garhauer could provide a sketch similar to the one I did, I can actually check my boat to make sure it fits before they put it together.
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