Trailer brake problems

A forum about Trailering, Launching and Retrieving the Telstar.
Ron
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

Just towed the boat from FL to NJ over 3 days in what my wife would describe as the "trip from hell". The trailer brakes were the only issue. I had inspected them (and the bearings) before we left. Looked good, but that changed about 2 hours later. The trailer has seen water (always salt) about 8 times in it's 18 month old life and I ALWAYS thoroughly flush it out with fresh water.

I occasionally check the wheels and hubs with a hand held infrared temperature gauge when I stop for gas or at a rest area. Been towing big things for many years and I view this as a mandatory safety check. Don't want to have a bearing failure and tire blowout at 60 mph. First check was about 2 hours after we left and it resulted in a big temperature difference between the two sides. One was about 120 degrees and the other close to 300 degrees at the hub and well over 300 on the brake drum. Cooled it down and pulled into a Goodyear station about 10 miles down the road. They pulled the wheels and drums and everything looked reasonable, except for the rather watery shape of the grease. Repacked bearings and headed north again. Next stop was around 100 miles later and resulted in both sides being HOT. This continued the rest of the day. Spent the night in Jacksonville and had a trailer shop rebuild the two brakes. Wound up with new drums, wheel cylinders, shoes, bearings, and they bled the hydraulics. Some failry minor rust seemed to be the cause of the problem. Rest of the trip was intermittent overheating of the wheels, hubs and brakes. We could drive 100 miles and wind up with either 120 or 350 degrees at both wheels. Difference seemed to be if there were any fairly hard stops in that segment. Looks like the brake shoes may not always fully release afterwards, and the drums definitely take almost forever to cool down.

I'm going to call Venture on Monday before I rebuild the whole system. Salt water and drum brakes have never made a good match and surge brakes are the worst way to stop a heavy trailer. I would prefer to switch to an electric system with disk brakes but that many not be an option. I will definitely convert to either electric or disk if I can. The 13 inch wheels could be too small for the rotors and calipers to fit. There are a few electric brake systems which are supposed to work in salt water but that itself is questionable. I also want to find out if 300 plus degrees at the hub and 400 degrees at the drums are within their allowed temperature range. That sounds way too high for me. That heat could blow out a tire. And how hot would it get if you're coming down the Rocky Mountains?

Some other thoughts. Personally I think that the trailer may need 4 wheel brakes (both axles) because of the overall weight (close to 6500 pounds) of the whole package. Mine came with drum brakes only on the front axle and it may be too much weight for only 2 brakes to work effectively without overheating. I don't think I've ever even seen a 4 wheel trailer with brakes only on two of them. I've got 3 other tandem axle trailers and they all have 4 wheel brakes. The 13 inch wheels, which were specified to get the boat closer to the water at a ramp, are also turning too fast at 60+ mph (more heat) - but changing to 14 inch would cause other problems (I'd have to raise fenders, all of the trailer crossbeams and bunks, etc.).

Has anyone else had any problems like this?
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
dcsailing1
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Trailer brake problems

Post by dcsailing1 »

Ron, I agree that is way too high a temp. We have made some long trips and I do a temp inspection quite often, not with my gauge, but with a hand NEAR, not on, the hub and tires. Never felt anything like that. Any chance the gauge is erratic? A drop of water will quickly confirm the 300 degrees.
Suggestion-, next time you rebuild your brake system-flush then switch to a synthetic brake fluid. The regular fluid attracts and holds water like mad. Synthetic not so much and much less chance of internal rust in the brakes.

I also agree on the 13” tires and need for 4 wheel brakes for most. We haul with a one ton dually with ABS and seem to have plenty of braking. Had to do a panic stop last year when an 18 wheeler was losing it on a curve and headed for our lane. The trailer brakes locked up and smoked the two trailer wheels, boat slid ahead and minor damage to the bow. Course the truck sped away without a thought.
Ron
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

Dave -

I will speak to Venture first, but I will probably wind up with a 4 wheel brake setup - preferably disks with a waterproof electric actuator (not surge) if possible. With electric brakes and a good controller in the truck you know what's happening back there. But it's got to be totally waterproof. Disks are MUCH better than drums - especially if the trailer gets backed into salt water occasionally. They also cool down much faster. I will probably tow the boat around 3,000 miles a year and I'd like to get to where I am going.

The temp gauge is honest - I check it occasionally. Also splashed some water on the hot surfaces and it immediately produced a lot of steam. I wound using a water hose at some of the rest stops to cool it down gradually - first splash some then slowly increase the water pressure.

The synthetic brake fluid suggestion is good and I will do it, but it's probably not the cure. I think 6500 pounds is too much for the two small brake drums sitting behind 2 small tires. Your experience confirms that.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Ron
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:15 pm
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

OK - made some phone calls and did some research. Venture and Tie-Down both believe that the actuator is not always releasing, thereby causing some brake drag. I will pull the tongue apart in a day or two to see what's going on in there. I'll also verify that the weight distributing Equal-I-Zer hitch is allowing the actuator to slide. It is designed to do that, but ?

Tie-Down makes 9.6 inch galvanized disk brakes (with aluminum calipers) that fit behind a 13 inch wheel. They also make a 9.2 inch stainless steel system to replace the 10 inch drums on our trailer. I can put either of them on all 4 wheels as well. The actuator would have to be replaced with one compatible with disk brakes - they MUST release the hydraulic pressure when backing up. As of now I expect to order either a 9.6 or ss 9.2 system for ALL 4 wheels. Installation should not be too difficult, but I'll probably wait until I get the boat in the water in a few weeks. Much easier to lift and then work on the empty trailer.

I think the 2 wheel drum brakes are marginal on our 4 axle 6500 pound trailers (weight with boat). PCI would be wise to rethink the specs that they give Venture. It may not even be street legal is some states.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Ron
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:15 pm
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

An update, if anyone is interested.

The 9.2 inch stainless steel Tie-Down disc brake rotor and caliper may not fit all 13 inch wheels, but the vented 9.6 inch galvanized system with aluminum caliper will (part no 46430X). It's got a smaller caliper mounting bracket. Trailer Parts Superstore (http://www.easternmarine.com/) has them for about $109 each. I think I'd want one for EACH of the 4 wheels. I can replace the entire Model 80 Actuator for the disc brake version for about $225, but the disc brake master cylinder assembly itself (part no 47260 ?) can be purchased for around $85. Looks like an easy job to swap out the cylinder inside the actuator and save about $150 (assuming it is in decent shape). I'd also need a # 11253 backflow solenoid for about $55 to release the pressure to allow the disc brakes to back up. Only problem there is that you've got to wire it to your backup lights on the tow vehicle. You can avoid this by manually preventing the actuator to compress by blocking the hole. All of the above is available at the web site above.

I haven't decided to definitely do all of the above, but I tow around 3,000 miles a year at 60 mph on the interstates and I'd rather not go thrrough another trip like the last one. When I get the boat off of the trailer I'll take a much better look at the whole system and decide then. This is my 4th boat trailer with drum brakes and they are always a pain in the _____ when it involves salt water.

By the way, the following is printed in the Tie-Down Model 80 Actuator manual in bold face -

5. When using drum or disc brakes on tandem axle trailers, both axles must be installed with brakes, Failure to install brakes on bothaxles will result in loss of braking performance, overheating of brakes & wheel hub, and significantly reduce brake pad life.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Ron
Posts: 1136
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:15 pm
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

Another update, and a suggestion for anyone who's dunked the trailer into salt water. While sitting on my driveway for the last week or two, the brakes had reached the point of nearly permanently locking up the drums. Did not move easily and I'm going to have to address the isssue before I move the trailer and launch the boat. Unhooking the brake line coming out of the master cylinder sort of solved the problem, but the brake shoes still didn't release that easily. The two piston rods coming out of the front of the master cylinder (inside the actuator and hard to see) were at least partially responsible for the problems - they have a good coating of rust now. This apparently impedes the movment of the pistons enough that the brakes tend to drag and lockup.

It would be a good idea for anyone who has launched the boat in salt water to take a good look at what's happening inside the TieDown Engineering Model 80 actuator. I believe that most of the boats are using this model, but Venture told me that they tend to use what they have in stock, so it could be another manufacturer or model. There's a small plate (above the sliding tongue) held on by 2 screws that covers the front of the piston area - the safety locking rod's cable is attached to one of the screws. Remove the plate and, using a flashlight if needed, take a good look inside the housing. You may see a fair amount of rust on some of the parts - including the two piston rods. This could limit the travel of the rods and/or make it more difficult for them to move - in or out. You do not want that to happen. It took mine 8 trips into salt water over it's 19 month life to cause this damage. And note that I was VERY carefull to spray and soak everything with a garden hose afterwards.

I've been doing a lot of research concerning TieDown Engineering and other brands of actuators. NONE of them are suitable for salt water dunking, and backing any sailboat into the water implies (on most ramps) that the actuator is probably going in as well. I've narrowed the search now to two models made by Titan (Aero-7500 and the hd version of their Model 6) and the disc brake version of the TieDown Model 80 (probably an 80E to cover the required backup solenoid). Since neither is salt water friendly, I've got to find a better way of flushing out the actuator after I launch or retrieve. Maybe leave that front cover plate off so I can get a good spray from a hose inside it? And carry a 2 gallon garden tank sprayer on the truck if the ramp does not have a wash down area and hose.

I will definitely replace the 2 drums now with 2 disc brakes, with 2 more to follow on the back axle when I finally get the boat off of the trailer. I'm debating between the Kodiak Intergral 10 inch discs and the TieDown 9.6 systems. THE TRAILER SHOULD HAVE BEEN EQUIPPED WITH 4 BRAKES (disc or drum) WHEN IT LEFT VENTURE. Most states require this (even when only driving through) and TieDown Engineering has a warning about not doing it in the instruction manual that comes with the actuator. Someone at Venture should have read the installation manual.

Has anyone had any experience or knowledge of the TieDown Engineering actuators and disc brakes, Kodiak disc brakes, and the Titan actuators? The public (via other forums and lists) seem to prefer Kodiak and Titan in salt water. I'm also curious if any of our trailers wound up with the Titan's and how they faired in salt water.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
osprey
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Trailer brake problems

Post by osprey »

Ron, I had similar problems with my trailer (2006) last year. When I ordered the trailer I had them equipped it with disc brakes (one axle). The shoes only lasted two years and that's with me washing them every time I dipped it in salt water. The actuator also wasn't releasing all the way, so I replaced it also. My trailer came with the Tie-down model 80E that had the electric backup switch. I replaced it with a Tie-down model 66 that has the manual pin. So far everything has been working good. The problem is the salt water! I bought an extra set of brake pads and plan on replacing them every two years. The Model 66 actuator is probably marginal, I'd go with the model 80. My problem was I needed it in a hurry for a trip and the model 66 was the only one I could find. If I was going to install new disc brakes, I think I would spend the money and go with SS.
Ron
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

Terry -

I figured others backing up into salt water were having problems as well. Regardless of which actuator I buy (The TieDown Model 80E is my first choice because the trailer tongue was already drilled for it), I (and anyone in salt water) have got to find a better way to flush it out as quickly as possible after a dunking. That may mean permanently removing the front cover plate, and carrying a 2 gallon garden sprayer filled with water if the ramp has no water hose handy (and many don't). Titan seems to have the better reputation, but none of them are salt water dunkable.

As far as the discs and calipers (I am definitely switching to discs), the open design of the rotors and calipers will really help - over drums. They can be easily and totally flushed out. I don't think stainless is worth the much, much higher price as compared to some of the coatings they are using now. I will replace the drums with discs now and buy two more disc brake kits for the now un-braked back axle when I finally get the boat off of the trailer. Note that Florida is one of the states that requires it. About half of them do. And TieDown Engineering stongly recommends that all of these tandem axle trailers have 4 brakes as well. The warning is on page 3 of the installation manual. Your shortened pad life was probably caused more by too much braking force from one axle than by the salt water problems.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
osprey
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Trailer brake problems

Post by osprey »

Ron, my brake pads had plenty of pads left. The problem was that the backing plates and the spring clips were rusted away. You've got me thinking about ways to extend the life of the actuator. The darn things are expensive, so I'd like to make it last as long as I can. Today I removed both end plates and give all the enteral parts a good spraying with WD-40. My plan is to spray it after every launch. I also have a back pack garden sprayer that I use to wash off the brakes. So now I plan on washing of the actuator, also.
Ron
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:15 pm
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

Looks like I'm switching to front disc brakes this week. The brakes and some other hardware arrived today. Still waiting for the new disc brake ready master cylinder and the backup solenoid. I decided to swap out the master and clean up the rest of the actuator (I've got a media blast cabinet which will get it like new). Also could not find a disc ready TieDown Model 80E in stock anywhere - which finally killed the idea of new. The REQUIRED rear discs will get mounted when I finally get the boat off of the trailer. I say REQUIRED because the trailer really needs 4 brakes - either disc or drum. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

As long as I'm improving it - I replaced the tongue jack today with a much heavier duty 1200 pound Fulton unit that can take saltwater much better. It's one of their "Sharkskin" units. The now slightly rusty stock jack was a little too wobly for my taste, and the wheel bracket was starting to bend a drop. The new jack also has more of a range in height too - goes about 2 inches lower with approx the same max height. There were times that I had to jack up the tongue with a bottle jack to get it off the hitch - didn't have the height to swing the stock jack down. Finally, I'm replacing the tail/brake lights with Optronics waterproof LED lights. Much brighter, totally waterproof and they draw 1/10 of the current.

This is the way Venture should have built it in the first place.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
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