Trailer brake problems

A forum about Trailering, Launching and Retrieving the Telstar.
Ron
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

Ran into a small problem trying to get the old drum brakes off today. Was able to do it fairly easily, but the brake lines and fittings were rusted into the wheel cylinders and I had to cut them off. Since I have to replace the side to side brake line now, with new "T's", I figured it's a good time to add the 2nd set of discs on the back wheels. Other than the frozen fittings, it is not a bad job to do. But the boat tends to get in the way so it should be a lot easier to do it with the empty trailer. The brakes definitely fit our 13 inch wheels. Venture told me that they would not, but I believed the tech guy at TieDown more.

I just wanted to let those interested in doing this job that the 9.6 inch TieDown Engineering disc brake kits are on sale at Trailer Parts Superstore for $89, about $20 off of each. Do the job right (4 discs) and you'll save $80. That's the 2nd reason why I decided to do it now.

The acutator is a little tricky to rebuild. The secret is to separate (spread) the case a little (maybe 1/8 inch, with a long bolt and 2 nuts) so you can remove the steel plate sitting in 2 slots in the middle of the rear case. The master cylinder then can be pulled up and out very easily. Otherwise you'll go crazy trying to get it out the back of the case, and then getting the new one in with all of the rods, springs and cables attached. The new master cylinders use stainless steel rods leading into to them. Should last a lot longer. The backup solenoid was easy to install.

I replaced the tail lights with LED units yesterday and they are a lot brighter, use maybe 1/10 of the juice, and are totally waterproof.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Ron
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:15 pm
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

A picture is worth a thousand words, right? So here are 2,000 of them -

Image
Image

The first shows the disc brakes on both axles, and the second the rebuilt actuator with the new disc ready master cyliner and the solenoid. This is the way the trailer should have been built. This is a straight forward job for anyone who is reasonably handy. I can document it for anyone who wants to try it themselves. It would be much easier to do with the boat off of the trailer. I did not have that option. Note that the 9.6 inch disc kits are currently on sale at Trailer Parts Superstore for $89 per wheel.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Mark G
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Mark G »

I wanted to know if Tony has returned and whether he has weighed in on the brake issue?
Ron
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

Mark -

Last I heard he was still recuperating from some sort of surgery. They know we care about this issue, but I'm not sure that enough of us think that it is important enough to for us to apply some sort of pressure. How many people have expressed any interest in this post anyway? Maybe 4 or 5? If you drive 2 blocks from your driveway to the launch ramp brakes are the last thing on your mind.

I told WIll that it would probably be a fair offer if Venture supplied 2 additonal drum brakes plus some other parts at cost, or 4 disc brakes with 2 discs plus other parts at cost, to any owner who wants to make the switch. Remember that we only paid for 2 brakes.

I understand that they will be supplying future trailers with 4 wheel brakes. The next boat to get picked up should have them. Still drums, but they're headed in the right direction. Disc brakes may require them to do some wiring on the new owners truck or car - to hook up the trailers electrical backup brake solenoid to the backup lights, and they could be reluctant to do this based on the amount of work and liability. Most, if not all, American trucks or SUV's have a 7 pin round RV type connector in back which has the backup lights on the center pin. Others may have to wire up their foreign trucks or SUV's themselves (or have someone do it) with a 5 pin or 7 pin connector where the 5th or center pin, respectively, would be wired to the backup lights. But what happens if the new owner shows up with a xxxxxxx (insert name of imported truck) with only a 4 pin connector in back or a 7 pin that does not have the backup lights on the center pin? I can see their point in not wanting to do it and not wanting to keep two kinds of trailer in stock (drums and discs).
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Mark G
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Mark G »

I think your idea about what's fair is. I'd go for it.
dcsailing1
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Trailer brake problems

Post by dcsailing1 »

Ron, I would also agree that something like you propose would be fair. I'm not after something for nothing, but I now feel obligated to improve the brake system so it's rated capacity is closer to the known actual weight. Since our two drum brakes are still operating OK, I have had good luck keeping boat trailer drums going in the past, plus our haul truck is very heavy duty, not likely I will spring for disks just now. Getting the brake capacity to where they should be is a safety and liability thing for sure.
I think that PCI urging Venture to help correct the obvious previous shortcoming along with switching to 4 wheel brakes on new deliveries is clearly the way to go. If a new owner wanted to spring for 4 discs on the trailer that would be a great option, though a bit more of a hassle for PCI.
Maybe there should be a time limit for a discounted parts deal, perhaps 6 months after the trailer owners are notified?
It would be nice if PCI/Venture is able to get this to happen sooner rather then later.
I am ready to order.
Dan

Trailer brake problems

Post by Dan »

I'd be curious to know what the current trailer price is and how it compares to the previous trailer pricing. If the trailer is now coming with four-wheel brakes and a spare tire, did they increase the price on the trailer?
Ron
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

Dan -

I haven't seen a new price sheet on the boat in months. They tend to add things, substitute equipment, and take things away on almost every new boat, without changing the price - so this may be irrelevent. My only point is that we appeared to pay for a trailer with 2 brakes. Maybe someone made a profit, but who knows.

I'm sure that Venture has raised their price to PCI by the cost of the additional brakes and hardware (perhaps $250), and may tack on another few bucks for discs if requested. But discs are now the "standard" brakes on ALL Venture trailers now - except for smaller ones and pontoon boats. I have no idea why Venture thinks that pontoon boats are better off with drums. Actually, there is very little difference in price between the drum and disc brake hardware.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Cathyalan
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Cathyalan »

Ditto on the "trip-from-hell" almost exactly. Annapolis to Madison, WI., April 2010.

Shortened version of story:
I used to be a gear head in 60's/70's but they don't make 'em like they used to. Took the trailer to my mechanic/friend. He did not understand the trailer. Two axles only one with brakes, surge brakes which went out of fashion with 3.5" computer disks, no bearing buddies, 13 inch wheels, axles that are NOT boat trailer axles. He replaced the brakes, drums, bearings, and added real bearing buddies. We, this year, haul about 150 miles twice a year so we are OK for that. We will be in fresh water-Great Lakes. We had planned on hauling her to Florida Gulf Coast but will put on 4 electric, disc brakes before doing so. Waiting to see if Gulf is water or oil this winter.

Weighed the boat and trailer minus sails and boom...6480lbs. Tongue weight is 390lbs. My mechanic suggested moving the boat forward on the trailer about on inch or inch and a half. Any thoughts from anybody???? I have an Equal-i-zer hitch on a Ford-150, 4WD, 5.4L V8 with towing package.

I can add about 150lbs forward on the boat...boom, sails (Genny, Asym, Main), 51lb Zodiac attached to the trailer below the bow, plus any of our cruising gear.

Should I be concerned about 400-450lbs of tongue weight for 150 miles at 55mph??

Any and all suggestions will be welcomed.

Alan and Cathy
Cathy & Alan #313
Ron
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Trailer brake problems

Post by Ron »

Hydraulic surge brakes are probably the best bet for a medium sized load that periodically goes all of the way into the water. No one has really gotten electric brakes to work that well when totally dunked, especially in salt water. There are a few systems on the market now and maybe it will eventually become a real option. But I wouldn't trust it yet. A good surge brake system works fairly well - mine is now good. What I had before was not.

The trailer comes thru with bearing buddies, at least mine did. Tony correctly picked the leaf springs because torsion axles don't handle water that well either. Water gets into them and they don't drain that well. Major problem when there is salt in the water. 13 inch wheels were a compromise to get the boat lower to the ground for launching and retrieval. I can live with that.

There is absolutely no excuse for the single pair of drum brakes on only one axle. The trailer needs two pairs considering its 6500 pounds and it's violating most state laws as well. Hey - you've got brakes that will safely stop around 3,000 pounds with more than double that on top. And disc brakes are the much better alternative for any trailer, and almost mandatory when water gets involved. Especially salt water.

I moved the axles back to increase the tongue weight, which is now around 500 pounds, AND to reduce the load on the trailer beams. I think it was something like 4 inches. Better to move the axles than all of the supports and the boat. You wind up reducing the load a drop on the main support beams this way. The axles are too far forward in the stock location. Note that PCI had the rails lengthened a few feet because of the size of the boat. Venture SHOULD have moved the axles back at that point. Too much boat AND trailer behind the axles.

150 miles is not a lot, but you could be doing 65 mph on the way there. With maybe 6 percent of the GVW on the tongue I'd be somewhat concerned, and even more so with a lighter tow vehicle. I'd move the axles or slow down, but note that there are people on this forum who have towed their 50hp boats 2,000 miles with Jeep Libertys. There probably close to 5 percent.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
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