Trailer woes

A forum about Trailering, Launching and Retrieving the Telstar.
Mangodoc
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Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 10:37 pm
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Trailer woes

Post by Mangodoc »

After closing on #342 two weeks ago I find I love the boat but have some trailer problems. The initial launch was for the sea trial, and I don't think I paid quite enough attention to details before the trailer was empty. After closing, when I loaded it for the first time, I was unable to get the boat forward enough to snug up to the bow roller (at that time I had not yet read the part in the manual about moving the winch post). So when I got a lot of sway at about 50mph, I assumed it was because my weight distribution was all jacked up (no pun intended). Still, I persevered on my 700 mile trip, but made it less than 200 miles before I had a tire blow (against my better judgment I was too cheap to replace the tires beforehand even though I knew the ample tread didn't necessarily correlate with the condition of the tires in the south Florida heat). FYI, the stock 185/80/13 tires on the stock Venture trailer are not always "in stock" (pun intended) but I managed to find some and replaced all four but not the spare (bad choice). Back on the road I felt like the sway was even worse than before, and 93 miles later I see smoke in the rear view mirror which was from a new tire that had somehow gotten a puncture in the sidewall so could not be repaired. As previously mentioned, these tires are not always in stock, so I just put the boat up in a storage lot and limped home.

Last week I drove down, launched the boat and enjoyed her for a few days. But the trailer is still a problem. Backing as far down the ramp as I was comfortable, I was still unable to get the bow up to the roller. I suspect a big part of the problem is that I'm reluctant to fully immerse my two wheel drive truck's rear tires for fear I won't have the traction to pull it out. So, I'm thinking about getting a tongue extension so I can easily distribute the weight more forward over the axles when I retrieve her. I have not measured the tongue weight, but I believe it's probably a little light right now.

So here are my questions. Is the sway probably a weight distribution problem as I suspect? Did the sway and/or weight distribution have anything to do with the sidewall tire puncture or was it just bad luck? Does anyone have experience with tongue extensions, particularly Extend-A-Hitch [http://www.xtend-a-hitchnorthwest.com]? Is it possible or likely that the boat is as far forward as it is supposed to be and that I need to move the winch post back (I haven't been back to the boat since discovering the issue with moving the post, so don't know if it is in the fore or aft position currently)? If that's the case I assume weight distribution isn't causing the sway, so what is?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Mangodoc
s.v. Trinity
#342
Ron
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Re: Trailer woes

Post by Ron »

You should have about 7 to 12 percent of the total trailer weight (with boat) on the hitch ball. With two 175 pound motors hanging over the transom, I doubt if you even have 3 percent. Easiest fix would be to move both axles back at least 6 inches. I moved mine back about 4 inches because I wasn't happy with the 5 percent I was getting (with the 120 pound 20 hp Honda back there). By the way, my trailer/boat combo (stripped) weighs about 6500 pounds. I'm guessing that you weigh about 7,000 pounds, which also means that the tires are probably overloaded. If you can get 10 percent of that on the tongue that also means that you'll have 700 pounds on the hitch which is about 200 more than most can handle. Get much more weight on the hitch and install a weight distributing system. As far as the tires go, you may have to go up to 14 inch rims, or a much heavier duty 13 incher load range D or better, but it might be hard to find a 13 inch E. 4 "D's" would handle about 6800 pounds, and you're probably heavier. But, with 700 pounds on the hitch, the tires are seeing about 6100. I'd be careful with that setup.

You should NOT use a tongue extension then towing, especially with the load rating of your hitch at over 500 pounds. (and it's got to be well over 500 to solve the sway problems).

Because of the angle of the boat when your're loading it, you also have to move the winch post up a few inches to load it, but then move it back when it is set right. "Right" is when the two stainless loops near the transom are sitting in the middle of the two pads on the trailer.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Mangodoc
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Re: Trailer woes

Post by Mangodoc »

Thanks Ron. I have a question- what is making these boats so much heavier than the factory specs? The chart on the beginning of Chapter 10 lists the boat and trailer at 4800lb. Even at 400lb for motors, 100lb for batteries, even a few dozen gallons of water (16*8=128lb), waste10*8=80lb) and fuel (6*10=60lb), I'm not coming up with anything close to 7,000lbs. What am I missing? Windlass? Tools? Anchors and chain rode? I'm really struggling to find that much weight.

And BTW, I wouldn't try to tow with a tongue extension. They are only for launching and retrieving. Still, having an extra few feet at those times seems like a nice luxury.

Again, thanks.
Mangodoc
s.v. Trinity
#342
Ron
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Re: Trailer woes

Post by Ron »

The documentation is down in Florida, but from memory -

The boat itself is well over 1,000 pounds heavier than the specs. That's almost normal, because just about every boat made is much heavier than they thought it was. I had a Catalina 400 that was off by around 4,000. The advertised trailer weight does not include at least 500 pounds of galvanized steel supports and bunks that PC added to hold the hull and ama's. I weighed my trailer several times, with and without the boat on it. As I recall, it came in at around 6500. If you want to see the exact figures, I think I posted this stuff on this site around 5 or 6 years ago.

Addendum - Found this in the General discussion category (and, by the way - the boat was just about empty when I weighed it):

I weighed the empty trailer and the trailer/boat (20hp Honda) in 2008 on a certified truck scale when I brought it down to Florida. It's significantly heavier than the specs, but ALL boats are heavier than the factories think they are. The empty trailer axles were about 1760 pounds with another 200 or so on the hitch. Figure about 1950 pounds for the heavily modified trailer. These numbers jump up to 6100 on the trailer plus about 500 on the hitch, giving us a 6600 pound combined weight. So the nearly empty boat weighs around 4600 pounds. I recall that the factory number was more like 3200 pounds, about 1400 pounds off. But I've seen much worse - had a 40 foot Catalina that was about 4000 pounds over. And it was just about stripped for racing. I've been on some which were over 5,000 pounds heavier.

We're getting more boat for our money??
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Mangodoc
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Re: Trailer woes

Post by Mangodoc »

Wow. That's concerning and, I have to say, seems fraught with legal peril. I can imagine the lawyer of the victim of the ensuing trailering accident asking me and the PCI reps if we knew the boat exceeded specs for the trailer and the C rated tires before it was put on the road and injured his client. I'm now afraid to put this thing back on the road without at least upgrading to higher rated tires and brakes, and I'm reluctant to invest that kind of money into a trailer this old. Maybe a new, aluminum trailer with adequate tires, electric brakes, springs, etc would be a better investment.

I'm disappointed that the boat's true specs don't match the advertised specs. Again, seems riddled with liability to me.
Mangodoc
s.v. Trinity
#342
Ron
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:15 pm
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Re: Trailer woes

Post by Ron »

Hey - the Venture trailer had more problems than just being overweight (Tony's fault for adding 500 pounds of steel and 1,000+ pounds of boat). It came thru with drum brakes on ONE axle. I'm surprised it stopped at all. And it is illegal in nearly all of the states. Tandem axles and a GVW greater than about 2,000 - 2500 pounds (depending on the state) requires brakes on both axles. The trailer itself is not that bad, just get better tires, move the axles back, 4 wheel disc brakes, etc. You want at least 600 pounds on the tongue, which will also help the back of the trailer contend with the nearly 7,000 pounds. Moving the axles back will improve the weight distribution.

Except for verifying specs, most boat building companies do a decent job of building boats. They don't know trailers. I also have a diesel powered Compac Horizon Cat. It's a good 600+ pounds over specs, and the trailer came with 10 inch wheels, 4 little tires, and tiny drum brakes on both axles. The tires must have been spinning 2 or 3 times as fast as the truck tires. Quickly replaced them with 13 inch wheels and tires and disc brakes.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Mangodoc
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 10:37 pm
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Re: Trailer woes

Post by Mangodoc »

Can anyone tell me, for a fact, what size tires I can upgrade to on the Venture trailer without scraping the hub? The one picture I have of my boat on the trailer with the ST185/80R13s looks like an inch would be no problem, but two might. Anyone out there put 14s on their Venture? 15s?

I won't get back to Trinity for another two weeks, and I'm trying to come up with some reasonable, safe and affordable way to get her the remaining 500 miles. But as I said, knowingly putting her on the road on that trailer with those tires that are rated for 1480x4=5920lbs when you're telling me I easily weigh 7,000lbs sounds like a good way to hurt myself or someone else.

Thanks for any advice.
Mangodoc
s.v. Trinity
#342
Ron
Posts: 1136
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:15 pm
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Re: Trailer woes

Post by Ron »

They make D rated 185-13's that have a 1710 pound rating, or 6840 in total. See link below. Note that Eastern Marine is probably the best place to look at or buy trailer tires (or brakes) anyway. You should be able to upgrade to 14's as well - the fenders could be the only problem. It was many years ago, but I think I bumped mine up to 14's. I've done things like this several times. Don't remember which boats were involved in the switch. The trailer is in Florida and I'm not.

I'd also weigh the trailer tongue. I'm 90% sure that you will have to move the axles back about 6 inches to get the tongue weight over 600 pounds. Less will not help the swaying. If the tongue weighs over 600 pounds, that will decrease the weight on the trailer to less than 6240. Note that with your extra weight, 700 would be even better. I'd be surprised if your current setup, with the two heavy motors behind the transom, has more than 300 on the tongue. My 20 hp Honda weighs about 120. Both of yours weigh about 350. Picture a see-saw with 2 heavy kids on one side.

Does the trailer still have brakes only on one axle? Some of the later ones may have come with both, after I spoke to Tony and told him that it was illegal and dangerous to sell them this way. He had no idea, and Venture did not tell him what he was doing wrong.


http://www.easternmarine.com/lionshead- ... ial-tire-d
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Ron
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:15 pm
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Re: Trailer woes

Post by Ron »

Just read one of my old posts, about 10 items down on the trailer topic. I did NOT replace the 13 inch wheels with 14's. You'd have to raise the fenders AND boat to get them on. Too much work. I wound up moving the axles back a total of 5 inches (1st attempt was 3.5, 2nd 1.5) to get the tongue weight up to 600. It was around 400 before the move.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Mangodoc
Posts: 64
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 10:37 pm
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Re: Trailer woes

Post by Mangodoc »

Thanks for letting me know. That settles it- I'm replacing the trailer. I'm not getting sued because I killed some guy when an under-rated tire blows on I-10 hauling a boat and trailer that is more than a ton over spec weight. I was contemplating getting 14s, but since that's not a viable option the only one left is to add an axle, which is absurd on this old trailer. New stock trailers go for about $3000. After modifying to fit the Telstar I'll probably have $4000 in it.

I have to say again, I'm disappointed that PCI didn't address this. I would think they are substantially liable as well.
Mangodoc
s.v. Trinity
#342
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