What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

A forum about Trailering, Launching and Retrieving the Telstar.
luigisante
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by luigisante »

Is anybody towing with a vehicle that has an engine smaller than a v8? I towed my boat originally with a Jeep Cherokee (towing package) 4L straight 6. I have even towed it about 30 miles with my old BMW 325 from Bridgeton, NJ to Cape May. I never had a problem toing with the Cherokee. Was thinking about a wrangler with the 4L-6. Too small?

Lou
Ron
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by Ron »

Lou -

You can probably tow it across the street with a golf cart. Any longer distances or involving interstate speeds brings up some safety issues. I'm not sure what the trailer and boat weigh in your case. The 28 with the tandem axle Venture trailer is a 6500 pound load, and correctly set up, it will have 500 to 650 pounds on the tongue. That should put it well beyond what a Wrangler or 3 Series BMW can do. A mid-size SUV may even be marginal for something like this. Most are rated in the 6,000 pound range with around 500 pounds on the tongue. Not saying you can't do it, but I'd hate to cross the Rocky's in one with this behind me.

I thought the 26 was a little lighter, and the trailer probably does not have the extra 600+ pounds of galvanized steel beams and supports that PC bolts on to hold the bunks and stands. If it weighs 5,000 pounds you've got more flexibility. Cherokee, TrailBlazer, etc.

By the way, the size of the engine is only one variable, and it's not even the most important one. You've got to take into account what the axles, wheels and tires, brakes, springs, etc. are rated at. The weight of the towing vehicle and it's wheelbase also are important. Ever see a short 10 pound dog with a long 50 pound tail?
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
dcsailing1
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by dcsailing1 »

I think Ron is giving you good information! We have had lots of tow rigs and trailers of all sizes and weights over the years.

We tow with a Heavy Duty 1 ton dual wheel pickup that weighs ~8200lbs – empty.
With the T28 on trailer we are way under the combined weight limit. Even when we add a two ton camper we are still well under limits. We purchased this truck with this loading in mind. We added an even more HD full air, no springs, rear suspension that keeps the truck level no matter the load.

Even with this HD setup, we have had some pucker moments while traveling at speed towing the T28. A quick lane change when you are cut off and or sudden need for max braking that smokes the trailer brakes still can leave you shook up and wondering if you have nuff-truck.

We also have a Jeep Cherokee that’s a wonderful vehicle within limits. The quick info I can find is: empty weight ~ 3000 to 3200lbs, wheelbase ~101 inches, max payload (everything you put in it including fuel and the trailer tongue weight) is 1150 lbs. Maximum tow weight is 5000lbs. When you start adding things up you can see you are quickly overloaded. I might move our T28 around our place with the Cherokee but wouldn’t think of going on the streets or highways. The I6 Cherokee has lots of torque but not near enough weight or braking for this kind of load. A Jeep Wrangler has considerably less (2000 to 3500lb.) tow rating and an even shorter wheelbase.

When sizing a tow rig it’s not the go but the whoa and handling in emergencies that you have to consider to have a safe rig and journey.

Ron’s example of a 10lb dog trying to control a 50lb long tail is spot on.

Check the trailer ratings in your owner’s manual and note the special equipment needed for the larger trailers.

Travel safe or maybe find someone with a more adequate rig to move your boat safely.
Ron
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by Ron »

Getting back to the real questions now - How much does a 26 actually weigh? How much does the empty trailer really weigh? Add these two and find out what the vehicle towing capacity is from the manufacturer. The tow vehicle can't really be under or even close to the actual trailer weight and be safe at higher speeds or longer distances. The bigger the difference (meaning truck higher than boat/trailer) the better off you are. I would measure the actual tongue weight of the trailer with the boat on it as well. You want to be in the 8% to 10% of trailer weight range, and then compare that to what your hitch can carry safely.

The old 26 brochures that I got from you seem to show a fairly light boat in the 3,000 pound range. But the brochures on the new 28 lists 3000 pounds also and we all know the boat is actually 4500 pounds. Ditto for the trailer which has an extra 600+ pounds of steel beams on it.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
luigisante
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by luigisante »

My boat was probably its heaviest when it was towed up from Texas. Even then, it was a hull with some of the woodwork left in the cabin. All of the equipment was gone, it had no engine, etc. I would guess that the boat weighed well under 3000 lbs. I have moved it on and off the trailer by hand 3 or 4 times, after I had stripped it down, and I would be suprised if the boat weighed much more than a ton at that time.

I think that Tony's weight figures for the early Telstars are much closer to reality than his figures for the new boat. I would guess that, with engine and the equipment I would like to have on the boat, it will probably top 3500 lbs but will stay under 2 tons. I haven't had the oportunity to take Ron up on his invitation to sail on the new boat yet, but, from what I've seen on this site, the new boats are significantly more complex than the older boats and, I would guess, much heavier.

A number of the older boat owners towed with fairly light vehicles. I think Joe used a Trooper for his trip up the Alaskan highway. Other than the initial trip from Texas, my boat has only made hops of under 100 miles on the trailer and it never felt unstable being puled by the Cherorkee, which, with the towing package was rated at 3500 lbs. I had assumed that Jeep increased the capacity of the wrangler when they made the unlimited, but it is still rated at 3500 lbs. Your cautionary coments are appreaciated though. I guess the first thing I need to do when the refit is finished is to weigh the boat and the trailer and figure out the tongue weight.
Ron
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by Ron »

luigisante wrote: I guess the first thing I need to do when the refit is finished is to weigh the boat and the trailer and figure out the tongue weight.
You got it. There are truck scales all over NJ. You want one with separate platforms for the truck and trailer (the scales I used had 3). I did that twice in the last 2 years, but down in Florida, at different weigh stations. Weighed just the trailer and truck, then came back with the boat on it. I was expecting to see maybe 5,000 pounds in total the first time - 3500 for the boat and 1500 for the trailer. The specs showed 3,000 for the boat, but EVERY builder is always wrong. Got a big surprise when they handed me the slips showing a total of 6500. The 28 weighs close to 4500 pounds with the 20hp Honda, and the modified trailer is in the 2,000 pound range. And that's with the boat nearly stripped - just the sails and a few tools on board. Some of the 28's out there must have well over 500 pounds of equipment and gear on board, and maybe the 100 pound heavier 50hp Honda in back.

For other 28 owners - I'd like to remind you that the approximate 400 pound tongue weight is too light for the total weight of the trailer. Pack everything in the boat as far forward as you can if you move it more than a few miles. I moved the axles back around 4 inches to help. The Honda 50hp motor hanging on back of the boat will make it even worse (like a see-saw). I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some of the boat/trailer combo's weigh over 7,000 with less than 300 on the tongue.

Once again - these are safety issues which represent reaonable limits of what you can or should do. A Jeep Liberty made the haul from Annapolis to Texas with a Honda 50 boat, and he made it there safely. Would a half ton pickup with an 8,000 pound tow rating do it easier and safer? Answer is obvious.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
luigisante
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by luigisante »

I was hoping that a new wrangler would suffice as a tow vehicle because I promised myself that I would only own convertibles from now on. I love taking my 3 series down 95 when we go to Florida for the christmas holidays or spring break.

BMW.jpg (13.23 KiB) Viewed 222 times

The top comes down as soon as possible. The only place I am likely to regularly tow the Telstar is from South Jersey to Florida for winter mooring. I had this image of crusing down to Florida in a top down wrangler and the Telstar in tow. I guess not!

So, I need to find a convertible half ton pick up truck.

th_r1-1.jpg (3.06 KiB) Viewed 222 times

Know of any factory verts with towing capacity?

: )

Lou
Ron
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by Ron »

Lou -

I had a Wrangler Sahara a few years ago. Loved it. The new ones (long wheelbase, 3.6L V6) can tow 3500 pounds, but they also say it's limited to a single axle trailer that's 18 feet long maximum. And you want to pull the Telstar to Florida? It might be safer to rent a barge and tow the Jeep behind the boat down the ICW.

Get a half ton pickup (old or new) and cut off the roof. I've seen a few of these around. There's always the old Ford Bronco's and Chevy Blazer's too. Most of the roof comes off.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
Andy
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by Andy »

I probably tow my Telstar more than most, having made the journey from Annapolis to Toronto (11 hours) or back 3 times in two years. My first tow vehicle was a Landrover LR3 with a V8 engine. The Landrover, despite its short wheelbase, is an excellent tow vehicle with a body on frame construction and ample weight to counterbalance a heavy trailer. As previously noted some Landrovers, including mine, have optional self leveling air suspension, which does not work great with an equalizer or most other weight equalization hitches. I bought an equalizer with my Telstar and used it for my maiden trip from Annapolis to Toronto, but it confused the self leveling suspension which constantly hunted for the "right" setting to compensate for the equalizer. Not dangerous but mildly irritating. I should note my Telstar is pretty heavy, with all the options including the 50 hp outboard out back. No idea how much the trailer and boat weigh with all the equipment on board, but its alot! My second trip, towing the Telstar back to Annapolis from Toronto (for warranty work) I left the equalizer off. The Landrover was happier without it and towing was effortless although the trailer surge brakes do not seem quite as active without the equalizer. However I had no problems despite some significant hills on the route. Long story short the Landrover makes an excellent tow vehicle (choose the V8 over a V6). Having driven the rig uphill and down ,through wind and rain storms, frequently passing and getting passed by 18 wheelers, I would say the equalizer is optional if you have a heavy enough vehicle and a self levelling air suspension.

I can say that with a little bit of confidence because my current tow vehicle (the landrover was a lease) is a VW Touareg V8 which also has self levelling air suspension. It has a 7700 lb tow rating and has also towed the Telstar over hill and dale for 11 hours from Annapolis to Toronto, specifically through the back roads of the Pocono Mountains. Like the LR3 the Touareg is a heavy vehicle with full time 4wd. Once again I left the equalizer off for the trip. The Toureg tows the Telstar pretty effortlessly (although probably not as easily as one with the V10 diesel option!). I had no problems on uphills or downhills, nor in crosswinds or passing situations. I have never had a nervous moment with either vehicle towing the Telstar and would recommend either of them. The LR3 holds more stuff while the Touareg is a bit "sportier". Based on my experience, if you are looking for a tow vehicle for a Telstar I would recommend looking at (1) The towing capacity of your vehicle; try to find something 5500 lbs or up. (2) The weight of your tow vehicle; try to find something heavier than what you are towing (3) Full time 4wd is a definite plus especially if you plan to launch the boat from a trailer or climb a lot of hills. (4) Look at the braking capacity of your vehicle, it should be enough to handle both your vehicle and the trailer if the surge brakes malfunction. (5) The power of your vehicle, although you can tow a Telstar with a golf cart (across the boatyard) 300lb/ft of torque is a nice benchmark for a good tow vehicle (I think the LR3had slightly less). I have no worries towing my Telstar, I keep the speed at 60 mph or less and would tow it with confidence anywhere.

See you out there!
Andy on Telstar 371 "Leslie Ann II"
Ron
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What vehicle do you use to tow your T2?

Post by Ron »

Andy -

The wheelbase of the tow vehicle is a little more important than you realize. You can obviously tow the 35 foot load with shorter trucks, but length really tends to stabilize everything. And I'm not sure if I'd want to tow this 6500 pounds (more in your case with the Honda 50) without a weight distributing hitch. You can do it safer with an 8,500 pound crew cab dually, but even that will have some weight being shifted off of the front axle. A mid-size SUV just about requires one of these hitches for any long tow. Load leveling (as per your springs) and weight equalization are not the same thing. The former keeps the truck level, the latter will prevent too much weight from being shifted aft. Example - 600 pounds of tongue weight could put 900 pounds of weight on the back tires and remove 300 from the front. Hey - in theory you can have an amost level truck with the front tires nearly off the ground.

As far as towing capacity of the vehicle, note the 6500 pound weight I mentioned above. You really shouldn't go lighter than that. Also take into account the tongue weight. The receiver is probably rated at 600 pounds ONLY with a weight equalizing setup - and ditto for the maximum trailer weight. There should be a sticker on the receiver, and more information about this in the owners manual. If you can find the small print, your 7700 pound rating is probably for a weight distributing hitch. Some stickers may just rate the hitch, with no indication of what the truck can actually do.

Finally, higher horsepower and torque make for an easier and more comfortable pull, but the real safety issues involve the tires, axles, frame, springs and especially the brakes.

I should also mention (again !!) two important facts about the Telstar and it's trailer here.

First, the trailer had been coming thru with TWO wheel drum brakes. This setup is capable of stopping around 3500 pounds. What do you do with the other 3,000 pounds behind you? This is not even legal in most states. PC and/or Venture have realized their "mistake" and I believe the new trailers are coming with 4 wheel drums, but note that discs are a lot better and they would be willing to upgrade. The only problem in doing that is wiring up the electrical connector - it needs another wire that gets attached to the brake lights on some foreign vehicles. Most american trucks with a towing package already have it (the center pin on a 7 pin round RV connector).

Second, the stock boat / trailer combination seems to have about 400 to 440 pounds of tongue weight with the Honda 20 in back. Probably less with the 50 hp motor see-sawing some more off. Considering the weight, this should be in the 550 to 650 range. This is what's causing the back end to bounce around. I recently moved the trailer axles back around 4 inches to compensate for this, and was previosly packing everything (4 sails, etc.) in the boat as far forward as possible.
Ron Marcuse
Telstar 28 #359 "Tri-Power"
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